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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:57 pm 
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Serpentine wrote:
Every time he opens that dumb mouth, gems just pour out.

“Marketing folks are pretty smart. They’ve got MBAs, they spend their time studying games.”

But hey, the devs enjoyed it because they got a trophy... we're going to be printing bills!


The field of marketing is actually a very tricky trade. Good marketing is more important than pretty much everyone gives it credit for and the people who do it really have to be smart in their profession to do it justice. From the different vids and interview quotes I've seen, it would appear that the developers didn't quite know how to exactly label the game correctly. If the developer can't accurately label the game, you can't expect the marketer to sell it.

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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:40 am 
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jmarshall23 wrote:
Everything I've said is based on what Carmack said mixed with my own experiences with VT, I like how you paraphrased what I said that actually made me laugh :P.


Good, because it was a joke.

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Can you link to the vid or article were that was said? I'm not doubting you I just want to see the full scope of the context in which it was said.


QuakeCon 07 id Studio Presentation:
http://www.quakeunity.com/file=2514

They do make some claims about "unleashing" artists, the modular focus of the editor and how it speeds up the creation process. Around 13 minutes in, Matt starts talking about the Terrain Editor and the speed of creating a completely unique area/world/map with id Studio and does suggest the process would be faster for a few reasons: 1. Artists can work simultaneously in the world without worry of "breaking" someone else's stuff (as long as they don't encroach on another artists area); and 2. Gains come from the fact that artists never have to go back and adjust their work since VT more or less frees them from texture memory budget constraints. At about 20 minutes into the video, Matt starts talking about how an artist transformed a large "rock" surface into a "parking lot" area in about 15 minutes.

I think these types of items are what others are referring to regarding the supposed speed of Rage/id Tech 5 development.

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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:19 pm 
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That is all well and good, but can you really imagine making that track, all of i? Really? Just let your eyes roam over that video and imagine putting in every bush, every blade of grass, every crack and crevice. That is a hellacious amount of effort, even if you do have a funky 'slap it down' workflow.

Especially if you listen to Carmacks earlier vid (the interviewer is hilarious) where he is talking about using banks of multi-decacore, hyperthreaded Xeons to render his maps out, this stuff is NOT for your average modder.

I hate the modern trend of ignoring mod tools (2K Games and DNF!), but I honestly do see their point here.


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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Again, VT is just one nice but small piece of id Studio and I'm guessing modders on these boards are really wanting to investigate the full offerings of id Studio, not just id Tech 5's VT capabilities. You don't have to use virtual texturing to build maps. You don't need a render farm or spend the time uniquely texturing every last square inch to build something.

That aside, if id/Beth/whoever didn't want to actually release the tools... or even if they discovered half way through development they wanted to hang onto their tools for in-house needs, then all they have to do is say, "We're not releasing tools," just like most other shops out there. Instead, you have their head marketer repeatedly saying "pull down the console and type id Studio"/the tools will ship with the game/some version of that. In short, id has a massive trust deficit with its fanbase at this point. The expectation of an id game when I was younger used to be as follows:

- Rock solid performance
- Envelope-pushing tech
- Lackluster single player story forgiven for typically amazing online experience
- Difficulty levels to meet the skillset of a wide playerbase
- Open CVAR system to tailor game performance to your hardware or tastes
- Editing tools either bundled with the game or to be released later (or even left to the community to create, tho the assumption there was that the game was mod-friendly so tools could be created for it)
- Bug fixes and general support guaranteed, often far after day 1 issues

Now id stands for:

- Game-breaking performance on 50% of video hardware
- Interesting tech, but looks dated in several situations and isn't featured as well as it could have been in the pioneer release
- Forgettable, unfinished single player story bundled with boring online experience
- EZMode "nightmare" skill level that had me yawning throughout
- Closed CVARs, limited menus, no customization = poor performance that often can't be tweaked
- Editing tools dangled and rumored for nearly 8 months after release have yet to materialize
- ATI users (of which I am not one, thankfully) still seem to have trouble playing RAGE. Further, non-video bugs and problems still exist, and some of them are game-breaking. That's unheard of from the id Software I used to know...

It's quite sad, really. If they don't want to release the tools, they should have said so months ago. It's that simple.

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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:28 pm 
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Oh man, you expressed all these things far better than me: I 100% agree with this.
If at least they could take all this into account not to repeat what will be hopefully considered as "past mistakes", I'd be glad to trip anew into a new Doom / Quake, even Rage game.

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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:51 pm 
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goliathvt wrote:
Again, VT is just one nice but small piece of id Studio and I'm guessing modders on these boards are really wanting to investigate the full offerings of id Studio, not just id Tech 5's VT capabilities. You don't have to use virtual texturing to build maps. You don't need a render farm or spend the time uniquely texturing every last square inch to build something.

That aside, if id/Beth/whoever didn't want to actually release the tools... or even if they discovered half way through development they wanted to hang onto their tools for in-house needs, then all they have to do is say, "We're not releasing tools," just like most other shops out there. Instead, you have their head marketer repeatedly saying "pull down the console and type id Studio"/the tools will ship with the game/some version of that. In short, id has a massive trust deficit with its fanbase at this point. The expectation of an id game when I was younger used to be as follows:

- Rock solid performance
- Envelope-pushing tech
- Lackluster single player story forgiven for typically amazing online experience
- Difficulty levels to meet the skillset of a wide playerbase
- Open CVAR system to tailor game performance to your hardware or tastes
- Editing tools either bundled with the game or to be released later (or even left to the community to create, tho the assumption there was that the game was mod-friendly so tools could be created for it)
- Bug fixes and general support guaranteed, often far after day 1 issues

Now id stands for:

- Game-breaking performance on 50% of video hardware
- Interesting tech, but looks dated in several situations and isn't featured as well as it could have been in the pioneer release
- Forgettable, unfinished single player story bundled with boring online experience
- EZMode "nightmare" skill level that had me yawning throughout
- Closed CVARs, limited menus, no customization = poor performance that often can't be tweaked
- Editing tools dangled and rumored for nearly 8 months after release have yet to materialize
- ATI users (of which I am not one, thankfully) still seem to have trouble playing RAGE. Further, non-video bugs and problems still exist, and some of them are game-breaking. That's unheard of from the id Software I used to know...

It's quite sad, really. If they don't want to release the tools, they should have said so months ago. It's that simple.



oh..finally some reality check here....

+1

and yes ....it is sad, sad sad... thing, it has nothing to do with haters gonna hate but with id gone from cult to crap with rage....you know it takes years to build a reputation but little to destroy it....

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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Here's my 2 cents, shamelessly copy/pasted from cheatcc.com

Quote:
Unwavering devotion to a console-maker, franchise, or developer against all logic is a foreign concept to me, yet the fanboys are out there in droves lauding their favorite things even when it doesn't make sense. That's not to say that there's anything inherently evil about, say, wanting EA Black Box to greenlight another Skate game despite many, many shark-jumping overtures (including one moment in Skate 3 where you literally jump over a shark) or hoping Valve releases Half-Life 3 this decade. That kind of passion is not only generally healthy but also a good indication the developer has done a good job.

The problems begin when that passion transmogrifies into blind advocacy without any justifiable reason as to why. Take the Nintendo Defense Force as an example. In the late summer of 2010 when reviews of Metroid: Other M decried the odd storytelling devices surrounding Samus' character development, fans of the franchise lashed out at reviewers, in some cases calling for physical violence.

Really?

Image

What could possibly possess a person to support a game to the level of using violence to defend it? How does that make sense? Was Samus your personal role model? Did she help you with your homework, read you bedtime stories, teach you to ride a bike? Help me understand.

Another example of mass hysteria can be seen following the release of Gran Turismo 5 when reviewers refused to see that it was perfect in every possible way imaginable. Poor souls. Never mind the fact that the game wasn't actually finished. Reviewers were obviously blind and patently biased.

And don't even get me started on Limbo's almost universal praise and the supposed disconnect between journalists and "real" gamers.

Where do all these zealots come from? It's as if taking the middle ground, praising a game or franchise for what it does right while lamenting its faults, is no longer a legitimately defendable position. These days, you're either a fanboy or you're not in the game, it seems.

Aside from the very trivial effects this has on message boards around the internet, there are some other very consequential economic reverberations this can have. When an army of fanboys come to the defense of a sub-par product based on "principle" (read: "credulity"; "nothing" is also a good substitute) there's no reason for the developer, publisher, or console-maker to put forth any more effort, especially if they have the sales numbers to back up their mediocre product. In fact, many games are purely meant to cash in on blindly loyal fan bases. Do you really want to defend these arrogant cash grabs?

So here's my solution: cut it out. Like, for real. I'm not saying that you have to like what everyone else likes, or that your purchasing habits need to change. All that really needs to change is the way you view your favorite players in the industry. They aren't infallible. Sometimes their games suck. Occasionally their competitors might even make a better game. The people that disagree with you might not have been dropped as children or exposed to high doses of radiation at a young age. And, yes, your favorite developers, publishers, and console-makers will attempt to use your loyalty to make a quick buck. Be just as passionate but with a generous helping of sense.

Image

Just stop being a fanboy. In the long run, it only makes our games worse and fills our forums with mindless blather that no one reads anyway.

By Patriel Manning
CCC Contributing Writer

Read more: http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/weeklyrant ... z1wMFToqN4
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Non-Commercial No Derivatives

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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 6:11 am 
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goliathvt wrote:
That aside, if id/Beth/whoever didn't want to actually release the tools... or even if they discovered half way through development they wanted to hang onto their tools for in-house needs, then all they have to do is say, "We're not releasing tools," just like most other shops out there.

yeah this is probably the worst. look in the bethesda forum and the gstaff dude. every 3-4 weeks he responds like "yeah some undefined stuff for rage is maybe in the works, tools are still in q&a. no eta yet". pretty hilarious when you think that rage came out october last year. seems they put 500% more effort in their older games (q4 on xbox re-released, doom3 bfg, wolfenstein browser game) and abandoned Rage completely :(


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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:46 am 
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Quote:
- ATI users (of which I am not one, thankfully) still seem to have trouble playing RAGE. Further, non-video bugs and problems still exist, and some of them are game-breaking. That's unheard of from the id Software I used to know...


You can't blame id for ATI having drivers that are held together by mud and glue :/.


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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:48 pm 
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jmarshall23 wrote:
You can't blame id for ATI having drivers that are held together by mud and glue :/.


I'm not the biggest ATI fan, but I have a 5870 and once in a while I encounter quirks in various games. They're usually really minor and don't interfere much with the game. RAGE, however, is broken. It was on release and it still is. You can blame ATI's crappy OpenGL drivers all you want. Fact is id software is the party with the biggest interest in RAGE working across the board and they have done practically nothing (that's visible to the consumers) to fix it.

Yes, ATI apparently has crappy OpenGL support when it comes to cutting edge AAA technology. Shame on them. The main blame must be placed on id software though. It's their game. It's their release. It's their fans. Solely blaming ATI for this mess is like blaming the weather for rain when you didn't properly prepare yourself through forecasts and clothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:25 pm 
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ATI are known across the web for having terrible OpenGL drivers. Anything that uses OpenGL will have multiple threads full of ATI users with problems.

Strangely, in each case, it's always the fault of the people who are developing the software :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:58 pm 
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tea monster wrote:
ATI are known across the web for having terrible OpenGL drivers. Anything that uses OpenGL will have multiple threads full of ATI users with problems.

Strangely, in each case, it's always the fault of the people who are developing the software :roll:


Of course. The software developers are responsible for their own software. Imagining the world to be a different place or blaming the weather is not going to fix your product. Ever. Id Software has tried this approach for 8 months now. It still hasn't worked.

So yes. Everybody knows ATI + OpenGL is sketchy. You now have three major options.

1. Go for DirectX instead
2. Don't "support" or "target" ATI hardware for your software.
3. Make it work with the current crappy drivers.

And then after launch, if you encounter problems, don't wait for ATI to fix it. Make your software work with the current state of things.
No matter how you twist or turn it, Id Software is responsible for RAGE working on the targetted hardware and systems. There will always be exceptions and minor cases where the setup, hardware/software mix will create problems for your software and there won't always be a developer solution for it. With RAGE it's not a minor case or exception. It's broken.

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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:47 pm 
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^Amen to this. I still haven't finished Rage due to poor performance and constant crashing, which is a shame, especially since it was given to me as a gift. I feel like I let that person down somehow.

Ati may be shit when it comes to drivers but Rage is the only openGL game/app that has these severe problems with my hardware. Not saying it's 100% id, but it's certainly not 100% Ati.


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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:26 pm 
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Quote:
ATI are known across the web for having terrible OpenGL drivers. Anything that uses OpenGL will have multiple threads full of ATI users with problems.

Strangely, in each case, it's always the fault of the people who are developing the software


Lol of course some blame has to go on the developers, but since their opengl implementation doesn't always work according to the GL spec a lot of the blame falls on the graphics card vendors :). And at the very least they make a awesome escape goat.

Quote:
1. Go for DirectX instead
2. Don't "support" or "target" ATI hardware for your software.
3. Make it work with the current crappy drivers.


1. That would be my approach but than you run into nasty mac/linux/ps3 users that bitch and moan that they can't run your game.
2. Again not supporting ATI hardware would be the ideal approach but the fact of the matter is they do make some pretty good hardware at a cheap price, which would alienate a good chuck of potential users.
3. Thats what it comes down to and its really a hit or a miss if it works or not.

Virtual Texturing isn't directly supported by the hardware which is why its buggy/slow on some cards, but unlike ATI if you read the GL spec it should work fine :).

Quote:
I'm not the biggest ATI fan, but I have a 5870 and once in a while I encounter quirks in various games. They're usually really minor and don't interfere much with the g


Direct3D powered games run perfectly on ATI cards and sometimes out perform NVIDIA cards, but ATI continuously drops the ball on OpenGL support.

Quote:
Solely blaming ATI for this mess is like blaming the weather for rain when you didn't properly prepare yourself through forecasts and clothing.


Well thats not a accurate analogy of whats happening, remember developers are really at arms length from the hardware; which means they are at the mercy of graphics vendors and there shitty drivers. A good example of this is both NVIDIA and ATI do nasty shit behind the scenes to get there stuff working, for example when you upload texture data to the GPU its stored slightly differently than how you uploaded it.

I'm not putting Id up on a pedestal(they def have their flaws) but really in this one instance you can't blame Id for the problems with Rage, because literally there is nothing they can do simply because Rage targets Dx9 level hardware. If they choose to drop dx9 cards they potentionally could have used OpenCL to allieviate some of the problems with Rage.


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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Sikkpin wrote:
^Amen to this. I still haven't finished Rage due to poor performance and constant crashing, which is a shame
This is exactly where I'm at with it. The game was running just fine, then all of a sudden it started locking up for seconds at a time, regardless of any number of fixes I tried... including a new cpu/gpu.

Goliath nailed it already.

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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:46 pm 
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bkt wrote:
Sikkpin wrote:
^Amen to this. I still haven't finished Rage due to poor performance and constant crashing, which is a shame
This is exactly where I'm at with it. The game was running just fine, then all of a sudden it started locking up for seconds at a time, regardless of any number of fixes I tried... including a new cpu/gpu.

Goliath nailed it already.


What drivers/gpu/patch level were you using when "it was working?"


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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:03 pm 
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Considering it seems like Carmack's main workstation is using an AMD card... yeah. (No stereoscopic support on nvidia consumer drivers, he mentioned that amd offer it)

Also, not too sure how people get all riled up about OpenGL 'specs', a lot of the 'specs' are very vague and leave a lot to the vendor's interpretation. Just because people consider one vendor to be 'the spec', does not mean that they are always right; nor does it mean that they should be the ones to set the standard.


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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:24 pm 
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Serpentine wrote:
Considering it seems like Carmack's main workstation is using an AMD card... yeah. (No stereoscopic support on nvidia consumer drivers, he mentioned that amd offer it)


I never said ATI cards couldn't run Rage, and that wouldn't surprise me if Carmack does use a ATI card. The real question is what driver version is he using :P.

Quote:
Also, not too sure how people get all riled up about OpenGL 'specs', a lot of the 'specs' are very vague and leave a lot to the vendor's interpretation. Just because people consider one vendor to be 'the spec', does not mean that they are always right; nor does it mean that they should be the ones to set the standard.


The specifics of the specs sure that would make sense but when certain features that are core of the spec don't work than its not the vendors interpretation its a error with the vendors code. The OpenGL specs need to start being less vague and more specific. It hurts productivity when you knock out a awesome feature that works one vendors card only to realize you have to stroke the other vendor stuff just to get it to the point of working; forget optimizing at that point.

Although on NVIDIA cards shitty OpenGL code that shouldn't work, actually does work so the argument does work both ways.


Last edited by jmarshall23 on Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:34 pm 
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Quote:
@SirCrest the Rage tools are in final testing, should release soon. I feel awful that it has taken so long.

http://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status ... 4427956225


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 Post subject: Re: Some news ?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:35 pm 
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drill_sarge wrote:
Quote:
@SirCrest the Rage tools are in final testing, should release soon. I feel awful that it has taken so long.

http://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status ... 4427956225


There you go :P.


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